Post Office scandal – live: Alan Bates says sell ‘dead duck’ ahead of Henry Staunton evidence

Post Office chief executive Nick Read has said the mass exoneration of convicted subpostmasters “may well” result in guilty people being absolved.

When asked if he thought guilty people could be exonerated, he told MPs: “There may well be people but it is the least worst option. We’ve heard the minister say that.

“These are exceptional circumstances.

“If there are one or two, whatever that number is, then fine.

“But this is the best way to get the right level of justice for people who have been wronged.”

A Post Office director has said former chairman Henry Staunton showed “somewhat erratic” behaviour late last year.

Ben Tidswell, senior independent director and chair of the remediation committee at the company, told MPs: “There was a distinct change in Mr Staunton’s behaviour once he became aware of the investigation into him, in November last year.

“It would be fair to say his behaviour was somewhat erratic from that point and became more erratic from January.

“I did have some concerns about his behaviour from about November.

“Mr Staunton had his own style and how he dealt with people. I didn’t have a problem with that, although it’s not necessarily the way I would have done it.”

MP’s asked whether Post Office chief executive officer Nick Read’s £400,000 wages on top of bonuses compared to the postmaster’s £20,000 wages showed the Post Office was “rotten to the core”.

Mr Read said: “I’m not going to answer that question in that sense. I’m clearly well paid and I’m clearly in a position where I’m trying to make sure the commercial sustainability of the Post Office is going to be for the next generations as well.”

Post Office chief executive officer Nick Read, chairman of the remediation committee Ben Tidswell, remediation matters director Simon Recaldin and Horizon and group litigation order IT director Simon Oldnall have all told MPs they are not “untouchable”.

Mr Tidswell said: “I can speak to that and the answer is absolutely not – if people are not complying with their duties then they’re accountable, and you see that most clearly with the departed chairman.

“I certainly expect everybody in the organisation to be accountable and, at the moment, I suppose in the absence of a chairman I lead the board, but I can absolutely tell you every member of the board believes that as well.”

Mr Oldnall said: “I echo that point, I expect to be held to account in my role by my leadership team, absolutely.”

Mr Recaldin said: “I can echo that and I can tell you that I am challenged regularly, and I am very touchable.”

Mr Read added: “So am I.”

Quizzed over postmasters being paid around £20,000 a year, Post Office CEO told the committee he was in discussions over greater pay for subpostmasters.

“We have done it succinctly over the past 18 months or so we had an excellent Christmas this year remuneration was up 11.5 per cent.”

He refused to commit to a living wage but promised a proportion of revenue going to postmasters increases year-on-year.

The boss of the Post Office has said the correct legislation must be put in place if “mass exoneration is the right thing” in relation to convicted subpostmasters.

He made the comments in relation to a recently published letter from Nick Read where he said last month that the Post Office would be legally “bound” to oppose attempts to overturn the convictions.

Mr Read told the select committee: “We are making no value judgments here.

“I’ve been very clear when I’ve been here. We want people to get through this process and if mass exoneration is the right thing, then let’s make sure we get the right legislation in place to deliver mass exoneration.”

Post Office CEO Nick Read says he will ensure people have the right to reply in any upcoming investigation.

Asked whether the Post Office was still using Horizon data to support prosecutions, he said: “We have not prosecuted anyone in the Post Office since 2015”.

He added there is no delivery system in place for a new system when they choose to migrate away from Horizon.

He said postmasters would have to be supported so they can have full trust in any new computer system.

Post Office chief executive officer Nick Read has told MPs he does not believe the organisation’s former chairman Henry Staunton’s comments about the “mistrustful” nature of the business’s management team are accurate.

Questioned on whether Mr Staunton’s comments were accurate when he said management could be described as a “mess, toxic and mistrustful of subpostmasters”, Mr Read told MPs: “No, I don’t believe they are.”

Asked why he thought that, Mr Read said: “Because I think we’ve made a lot of progress, certainly since 2019, to try and change the culture of the organisation.

“Don’t get me wrong, this is a scandal that has gone on for 25 years, there was an enormous amount to change and it won’t be changed overnight, but we’ve made progress.

“We’ve made progress because postmasters have told us we’ve made progress, existing postmasters in the network today, and I think we’ve made progress as can be seen from the performance of the network and of postmasters during the crisis of Covid, and indeed as we’ve come out of that as well.

“There’s no question about the Post Office and its role in the infrastructure of our country, no question at all.”

Asked whether he believed that any change of chairman or chief executive at the Post Office would change how the organisation approached financial redress for subpostmasters, Alan Bates told MPs: “I think over the years I’ve been dealing with Post Office, the culture has always been Post Office.

“It hasn’t changed, it’s been the same for donkey’s years – it will not change and you cannot change it.

“My personal view about Post Office is it’s a dead duck and it has been for years, and it’s going to be a moneypit for the taxpayer in the years to come.

“You should sell it to someone like Amazon for £1, get really good contracts for all the serving subpostmasters and within a few years you’ll have one of the best networks around Britain.”

Carl Creswell, director of business resilience at the Department of Business and Trade, has told MPs there were two reasons that former Post Office chairman Henry Staunton was removed.

He said: “There were two key allegations, from my point of view, that were influential in the Secretary of State’s decision for the dismissal.

“One was around the chair allegedly trying to stop a whistleblowing investigation into his conduct, which given the history of the Post Office and the Horizon scandal struck me as particularly serious.

“The second was around the chair trying to stop a public appointments process to recruit the new senior independent director because unfortunately Mr (Ben) Tidswell is coming to the end of his term and is moving on.

“That role is there to hold the chair to account, so again it struck me that trying to bypass the public appointments process that the minister wanted to strengthen the board was a step that seemed inappropriate to me.”