Karaca, 53, London
Occupation Works for an investment bank
Voting record Once voted for Labour, under Corbyn, otherwise mostly Green
Amuse bouche Performed as a backup dancer in an alternative beauty contest at the Wilderness festival
Mark, 49, London
Occupation An engineering manager in tech; currently unemployed
Voting record Historically voted Liberal Democrat, but Green this time, even though its politics are to the left of his, since the environment is the most important issue
Amuse bouche Used to be in an alt-rock band called Sugarhead
For starters
Karaca Mark arrived before me; we chit-chatted about Mexican food.
Mark He was a really nice guy, very smart, articulate.
Karaca He doesn’t drink, I drink some. Everything else we shared – pork tacos, steak tacos, a red pepper quesadilla.
Mark I’m not really sure of the difference between a taco and a quesadilla.
The big beef
Karaca He’s very against cosmetic surgery, and thinks we should just get on with our lives, whatever we look like. He had this strong view about influencers making people think they had to have a certain body type or look a certain way. He said social media and the tabloids are in a bad state, and people having surgery reflects that.
Mark Karaca had a “why do you care?” sort of attitude. At the end of the day, it’s up to people to do what they want. So we didn’t disagree that much. Then we talked about gender affirmation surgery. It’s a much more complex area than cosmetic surgery. He’s much more knowledgable than me. I don’t know anyone with gender dysphoria. So talking to him, getting some insight, did change my perspective.
Karaca His views about gender-affirming surgery seemed to come from the very media that he’d criticised so strongly earlier on.
Mark We did agree that if society was less prescriptive and less binary, people might struggle with gender dysphoria less.
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Sharing plate
Karaca On pronouns, he was saying: “What’s the point? Somebody’s homeless or hungry, they wouldn’t care if someone misgendered them.” We had a gender-fluid member of staff waiting our table. I said: “We don’t know that person’s pronouns, what’s the issue?” And he said: “It’s such a big issue at work. They write it at the end of the email. You’re always worrying you’re going to make a mistake.” I think it’s an easy thing, if you make a mistake, that’s no problem, so long as you’re trying to get it right.
Mark My problem with woke culture is that it becomes as prescriptive as the views it’s rallying against. And if people don’t believe all the right things, as per the woke playbook, they just get attacked. As well as diversity of people, it’s good to have diversity of thought, and that means people thinking different things to you, and maybe even thinking things that are wrong. And I still believe that to be true. But Karaca’s point is that marginalised groups suffer a lot more, and I do see that.
For afters
Karaca We talked about Black Lives Matter, the police beating up Black kids. He said we shouldn’t focus on stopping people being racist – that’s like thought control. We just need to stop the end result of that. I’m Turkish, and I was the brownest person in that restaurant. If a group of kids came and threw stones at everyone, then yes we need to stop them throwing stones. But if they’re only throwing them at me, that’s a different thing.
Mark I’ve got mixed-race children, and they would not have considered that their lives didn’t matter until they heard the term “Black Lives Matter”. My concern is that you’re propagating this idea that Blackness is a thing, when it was only ever a thing because of the racism in the first place. A Black guy in London will have much more in common with me than with a Black guy in Botswana. If you focus on racism as the motive, you’re reinforcing the idea of race and otherness.
Takeaways
Karaca He was very nice. His views were definitely strong, but he had an open mind with it.
Mark It’s a little bit weird because you’ve just met this stranger and you’ve had this quite intense philosophical discussion, but he was a really nice, smart guy.
Additional reporting: Kitty Drake
Karaca and Mark ate at Casa Pastor, London N1.
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